This extremely well-done skewering of T. Colin Campbell’s The China Study has set the blogosphere ablaze in the last week. But I had to re-post it here as it deserves all of the attention it can get!
Denise Minger, a raw food enthusiast and freelance writer from Portland, Oregon has done an incredible job of really digging through The China Study and tearing it apart piece by piece. The China Study is Campbell’s misguided attempt at defending veganism on health grounds. It is an often-cited ‘proof’ of why eating animal products is unhealthy and has become something of a bible for vegans and vegetarians who want support for their diet on health/science grounds.  The problem is, the conclusions reached by the study and the way the data was selected and used by Campbell are just flat out wrong in nearly every way.
Don’t get me wrong- I definitely respect the right of people to choose not to eat animal products on moral grounds or simply because they find it unappetizing. But when the attempt is made to confirm this personal bias by finding scientific data to support their case, they run into a lot of trouble. Especially when they do as poor a job as Campbell did with his opus.
So if this kind of thing interests you and you really want to see someone demonstrate how even a respected scientist can stack the deck in his favor and draw a dishonest conclusion, do yourself a favor and read Minger’s thorough takedown. If you are a vegan or vegetarian and are interested in the faults of Campbell’s ‘research’, I highly recommend reading Minger’s piece as well.
The China Study: Fact or Fallacy- by Denise Minger
All further weak comments from brainwashed vegan trolls will be deleted. All cogent, substantive comments still welcome.
15 Comments
I just backtracked to your blog from the China Study link. Since I became involved in this whole paleo kind of thing, I have been thinking there should be some kind of facility that helps people negotiate the health maze such that other people besides those who spend hours and days researching on the net might learn about it. So I am a bit surprised that there is already one right here in San Diego. Cool! I hope you do well. This stuff is fascinating and the more I dig, the more complex it becomes. Also, if interested, looks like there is a brand new paleo meetup group for San Diego. The first meeting is coming up soon. I don’t personally know any of the people involved, but it might be interesting to meet other of like mind: http://www.meetup.com/San-Diego-Paleo-Tribe/
Hate to burst your bubble but Denise’s analysis of The China Study is heavily flawed and therefore invalid. Debunked by a cancer epidemiologist…
Here it is…
http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/a-cancer-epidemiologist
The proper testing procedure as stated by an expert on analysing stats…
http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/my-response-to-denises
Campbells response to Denise..
http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/campbells-response-to-denises
Gday crew,nice blog.
How come NONE of these pro meat bloggers have any REAL muscle/cardio with all that protein talk?
Come and see if ANY of you guys can out bench press/dead lift us at
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com
http://www.veganstrength.org
http://www.organicathlete.org
Here are more websites for the doubters.
http://www.pcrm.org
http://www.drmcdougall.com
http://www.notmilk.com
http://www.preventcancer.com
http://www.heartattackproof.com
Mike Arnstein ran a 2:28 marathon this year at Boston. He is the FASTEST runner in the raw food movement today. Long time vegan and now powered by sweet fruit. How come there is no competitive athletes eating this ‘paleo fat diet?’ Please shut me up and show me cos Im sick of seeing cardio and muscle deficient paleo crew trying to debunk the china study that us elite athletes are thriving on.
Can you debunk me with a high fat eating paleo athlete that is a national level runner, cyclist, power lifter, UFC fighter like us vegans clearly have provided.
Didnt think so..
Love, peace and banana grease.
Durianrider
it was very interesting to read.
I want to quote your post in my blog. It can?
And you et an account on Twitter?
Thanks for the comments everyone- sorry for the delay in moderating them- it seems my notifications were not coming in. Now that I have gotten them up here are some responses:
@Eva: Thanks for your note. I think discussing these things with others who are interested is a great way to learn, hear different perspectives, and develop our own points of view. While I do like a lot of aspects of the ‘Paleo’ approach, I don’t personally identify myself with any movement or diet- I think different things work for different people and there is no one size fits all approach. I also think many of the claims made by paleo proponents are a little tenuous and many of them (not all) are pretty extreme and hyperbolic in their views (i.e. everyone is harmed by gluten, fructose is evil, yams are ‘better’ than white potatoes, etc). But taking a pale0-ish approach with some flexibility and not getting too attached to the mythology of how hunter-gatherers did or did not live is probably a good way to go for many folks.
I have a lot of to say about paleo and am working on a new blog post to address some of my thoughts. Thanks again for your comment!
@freelee, durianrider, and other pro-vegetarian trolls who want to come here and proselytize: I don’t know why you think I am pro-paleo or pro-high fat or pro-anything just because I linked to Minger’s excellent analysis of the China Study. You obviously haven’t read the rest of my site. I do not identify with any one particular diet but I do recommend eating quality animal protein for optimal health. I am not a proponent of a high-fat diet for athletes so you are just way off base. One can take issue with faulty science behind the China Study without having to be a paleo crusader. I am nothing of the sort.
@Durianrider: you are embarrassing yourself. Are you really trying to call me out to show you athletes who are not vegetarians and are elite at being strong and fit? How about almost every professional athlete and olympic champion on the planet? Vegetarians make up a tiny minority of that group and there is a good reason for it. Can a handful of vegetarians manage to perform well in long distance races and other similar sports? Sure they can, but one could argue they are doing so in SPITE of their diets not BECAUSE of them. So you can proudly lay claim to the less than 1% of elite athletes who are strict vegetarians, and I will solidly hold on to the other 99+%. Good luck with that argument
And by the way- the physique contest ‘winners’ at that humorous site- ‘veganbodybuilding’ made me giggle. Unless it’s an anorexia contest, I’m afraid those people wouldn’t even be allowed in the room at a real natural bodybuilding competition. Again, hats off to them if they are happy and feel good- just giving you a reality check.
@Freelee: The cancer epidemiologist you link to thoroughly debunks herself with her own words:
“I’m an epidemiologist, and yes, scientists are NOT objective (I’ll say it: I’m an ardent veggie with a happy veggie family). Hell, science is not objective. I mean, you could be given a blob of numbers that mean nothing. It takes some context, interpretation, and data processing to make anything meaningful out of those numbers.”
Wow do I even need to respond to that statement? Yikes. I think she means it takes some massaging and misinterpretation and confirmation bias of the data to arrive at the result you desire
Hence, the entire benefit of Minger’s excellent debunking. I’m not convinced by your links or argument.
A blob of numbers don’t mean nothing- they mean exactly what they are- why is it that some folks can’t understand this? There is nothing wrong with drawing some conclusions from data you find, but a good scientist always always acknowledges the confounding variables that can cast doubt on his/her findings and is honest about not excluding data/findings that ‘interfere’ with the conclusion he/she wants to draw. That is exactly what Campbell did not do.
Thanks for the comments all- I welcome the discussion.
Hehe, yeah, lowcarb/high protein goes way back in the weightlifting world. They were doing it long before Atkins came on the scene. Pretty funny to suggest there are no successful athletes eating protein! As far as paleo, I think of it more as a general idea. I do think some people tend to get a bit to ‘religious’ about it, taking it to the extreme but that seems to be true with all the eating plans. For instance, I think it’s highly likely that fruit was eaten in the paloelithic and so were tubers, but heavy consumption of them may not be ideal for inactive people nowadays who are trying to lose weight, whereas it’s commonly suggested in the paleo community that they may be very useful for those who are very athletic and perform very glycogen depleting activities often. On the other hand, for those who are insulin resistant/diabetic, research has shown good results with lowcarb diets and sugar and starches can spike the blood glucose quickly. The story can be a complex and confusing one and I am not surprised that some people have a tendency to oversimplify. A simple message is easier to remember than a complex one.
Absolutely right Eva. It’s a great general approach that can work well for most people as long as flexibility is maintained and extremes are avoided.
As an update to the continued skewering of The China Study- here is a link to more solid analysis by Chris Masterjohn looking at Campbell’s ‘low protein rats’ and protein deficiency’s role in cancer and health. Really great stuff as usual from Chris:
“His [Campbell's] failure to tell us that high levels of dietary protein offer equally dramatic protection against the initiation of cancer and that rats fed low levels of protein have many health problems of their own, however, unfortunately obscures the true importance of his work.”
http://westonaprice.org/blogs/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer.html
Comments quietly disappearing?
Waz up?
Reprinted from above in case you are reading impaired:
“All further weak comments from brainwashed vegan trolls will be deleted. All cogent, substantive comments still welcome. ”
You accusing me of displaying the Dunning-Krager effect without backing that up with a solid case showing exactly where my cognitive bias is and how I have reached erroneous conclusions qualifies as trolling. If you have something substantive to point out in order to make your case, I welcome it. Otherwise those kinds of comments will be deleted. Keep it constructive.
I’m not interested in fighting ‘the diet wars’ with disgruntled vegans. It’s an exercise in wheel-spinning and a total waste of my time and energy.
Well, see what I mean?
You removed someone else’s comment because of mine? A comment you had answered.
Who is the “brainwashed [disgruntled] vegan troll” – me or the other commenter? And how do you know? Is it the scientist speaking?
OK, my comment was a bit blunt, but to see you dismiss Dr. Greger’s work as “epic failure” after having a glance at his web site almost made me laugh. You can’t expect to be taken seriously with that kind of attitude. (Did you really not know about Dr. Greger before?)
So, in short, your touchiness and flaring made me think of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
But telling people about the Dunning-Kruger effect is always a good thing, as it’s good to be aware of it, regardless of where you are on the curve. Placing yourself on the curve, is part of it!
BTW, are you in any way related to Preston Swirnoff, the San Diego-based electro-acoustic composer? He seems way cool!
I removed the earlier comment and my response, not because I’m suffering from a case of thinking I know everything or displaying a cognitive bias, but because I decided I didn’t want this thread to turn into a never ending round-robin of vegan vs. me diet wars that will never end. As I said I find it gets boring, tedious, and isn’t worth my time. It’s my site so I make the rules
There are plenty of folks out there who would love to drag on an internet battle over vegan vs. omnivore for months so I’m sure you can find them haha.
I didn’t dismiss all of Dr. Gregers ‘work’ as epic failure, I dismissed the way he rationalized scientific papers ‘proving’ the superiority of veganism as an epic failure and I stand by that strongly. The fallacies in his approach when it comes to this are well documented and spelled out here and in so many other places that I don’t feel the need to go through them all over and over. Either you are listening and reading or you aren’t. To each his/her own. I wasn’t being touchy or flaring up- I was being honest and unemotional about it.
Some random commenter who uses the name ‘modus’ and pops in to tell me I’m guilty of the Dunning-Kruger effect without explaining himself sounds like a troll to me as are the many comments I’ve deleted by disgruntled-sounding vegans who don’t like me posting a link to Denise Minger’s and Chris Masterjohn’s work. If you’ve actually read my other articles and the rest of the content on my site- I regularly plead guilty to not knowing everything and being open to new information and that there is more than one way to eat healthy for different people. That doesn’t sound like the Dunning-Kruger effect to me but if you think I’m ‘on the curve’ then so be it- I’m sure we all are to some degree, otherwise no one would have an opinion or a position on anything complex.
If veganism is working for you and you feel, look, and perform great and your health is excellent then I’m happy for you. I do not believe it is an optimal human diet but I have no emotional attachment to how people choose to eat if it works for them. Thanks for responding and explaining yourself a little more- next time do that to begin with and I won’t think you are a troll
Yep, that musician is me.
See!
Now I *like* you! And I can much better hear what you are saying.
And I’ve become a fan of your music! (I “dabble” in that musical ballpark myself.)
I don’t mean to go on and on about the D-K effect, but here is a short video that explains what I meant about placing oneself on “the curve”. That is with all respect. Watch it and you will hopefully understand my point better! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y
I am, indeed, one of those healthy vegans – marathon runner even! But health is low on my list of “whys”. Every Earthling’s right to it’s own life is most important to me. Then we have the eviromental & climate issues. And, of course, the fact that we have widespread hunger in the world.
Keep up the good work! (It will mainly be your music I’ll check out, though…
Sounds good Modus
Vegan marathoners are usually not my biggest fans here but many of them seem to like my music so I’m cool with that haha. Take care and thanks for the comment.
“Here are more websites for the doubters.
http://www.pcrm.org”
Durianrider, it’s impossible to take you seriously when the only thing you by way of evidence are misinformative vegan blogs and PETA-run propaganda front sites like the PCRM:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/r/163-misnamed-cancer-project-promotes-animal-rights-propaganda
One Trackback
[...] Debunking junk science: goodbye china study (at abundant brain & health) [...]